Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

Checkit · 14-Apr-2007 01:06:04

DreymaR wrote:

You have seen white hot metal, no? And metal that isn't even red hot will obviously be black. I find it quite intuitive. To get a quick-glance impression you just think heat and look quickly at it. I find that keeping the data in a large area of the standard hotmetal palette makes it more clear rather than less, but ymmv of course.

I have to say that I don't find it very intuitive, even though I understand the idea behind it. I look at it, and it makes sense, but it doesn't have the visceral impact that greyscale has for me. Does it takes some time to "train" your eyes to HotMetal?

vilem · 14-Apr-2007 01:07:55

Great... DreymaR, you better speak german! All of this uploading of images is such a pain in the arse and then the stupid guys at wikipedia just delete it again... o_O

NeoMenlo · 14-Apr-2007 04:26:47

Download heatsigkeyboards.psd - Public Domain: Reference Preferred Though

Last edited by NeoMenlo (14-Apr-2007 04:27:58)

NeoMenlo · 14-Apr-2007 04:36:57

wait... why are you uploading them to wiki?
They're just gonna end up deleting it or banning you.

http://www.imageshack.us

its free
you're allowed 1.5 mb
they never delete them
they have easy thumbnails
they allow direct linking
they make it easy to embed

DreymaR · 14-Apr-2007 09:01:39

Apparently, my education as a physicist has trained me in the use of hotmetal palettes and it never occurred to me that others might not find them as easily graspable as I do. Interesting.

NeoMenlo, those images look very nice! (Maybe just a little too out-of-focus, to be picky.) I don't understand what the percentages are for though? Also, how did you make them; using another Photoshop palette maybe? Pray tell. To me, the hotmetal shows the problem areas of Dvorak and QWERTY more clearly, but I guess only physicists may see it that way. :)

Über die Deutsche Sprache Frage: Ja, ich sprech's. Ich habe Deutsch in die Schule seit lange gelernt. Mein Deutsch ist aber leider nicht besonders gut. Alle Deutscher wollen immer Englisch mit mir reden, so ich habe keine Chance, mich zu üben. (More to the point though: The statistics for the usage of English, Spanish, German and French are stated in my Excel file so why would I have to speak it to have an opinion? And locally, it doesn't matter how narrow a language may be. In Norway, presenting a Norwegian Dvorak or Colemak for instance is a great asset to its popularity and almost mandatory for its use.)

vilem · 14-Apr-2007 13:54:49

Hey guys, why do you all have to show off with your photoshop skills?! I just want really simple greyscale pictures!! Just to illustrate at a glance, how the keys are destributed, without people having to study medicine to understand the diagrams..

DreymaR wrote:

Über die Deutsche Sprache Frage: Ja, ich sprech's. Ich habe Deutsch in die Schule seit lange gelernt. Mein Deutsch ist aber leider nicht besonders gut. Alle Deutscher wollen immer Englisch mit mir reden, so ich habe keine Chance, mich zu üben.

Dann könntest du mir ja mal behilflich sein!

Last edited by vilem (14-Apr-2007 17:08:19)

NeoMenlo · 14-Apr-2007 17:45:35

NeoMenlo, those images look very nice! (Maybe just a little too out-of-focus, to be picky.)

I don't really understand what you mean by out of focus. I didn't make it any more blurry. Is it possible that there's something about you're computer that makes PNG-24 blurry?

I don't understand what the percentages are for though?

It tells the user that red means 12% usage, and blue means 0%. The colors between it are, hopefully, easily inferred. I thought that it would make it so that there is absolutely no confusion about when color is warm or cool.

Also, how did you make them; using another Photoshop palette maybe? Pray tell.

Take the greyscale image. Convert the color spectrum to from greyscale to RGB (Image > Mode > RGB). Then apply a gradient color map (Image > Adjustments > Gradient Map). I created a gradient that looks exactly like the one at the title bar (I later used the gradient tool to fill in the exact same gradient I just made).

Just to illustrate at a glance, how the keys are distributed, without people having to study medicine to understand the diagrams..

I've never studied one before. I just thought this would be easy to understand at a glance.

vilem · 14-Apr-2007 19:39:28

Neo, could you make me a greyscale pic of the three layouts in the same style but without the %age and all of them in one image please? What I'm thinking of is something in between Checkit's pictures and yours. That would be really helpful!

DreymaR · 14-Apr-2007 21:43:56

Vilem, did you read your email today you chaotic person you? I made a grayscale image of English and one of German. I can mail them to you but not upload them from home.

vilem · 14-Apr-2007 21:46:46

I did! But I never got that e-mail! Wait, maybe I wrote my old e-mail address into the field...

Oh... It landed in the junk folder, sorry!

Last edited by vilem (14-Apr-2007 21:58:24)

NeoMenlo · 14-Apr-2007 22:04:41

Korivak · 14-Apr-2007 22:13:41

Wow. Check out that right hand bias on Dvorak....

Shai · 14-Apr-2007 22:20:25

You shouldn't use these charts in Wikipedia, because they go against Wikipedia's policy of No Original Research.

vilem · 14-Apr-2007 22:34:58

Great, all this effort for nothing!

DreymaR · 14-Apr-2007 22:41:25

Shai: If Vilem includes all relevant references, I do not see how the images can be original and not source-based research. Are you certain you're not misreading that rule?

NeoMenlo · 15-Apr-2007 01:00:47

THIS actually isn't original research.

We used research, which has been done by another (and was published) to make a graphic representing the exact data that the research showed

We didn't actually research anything here.

Pictures have enjoyed a broad exception from this policy, in that Wikipedia editors are encouraged to take photographs or draw pictures or diagrams and upload them, releasing them under the GFDL or another free license, to illustrate articles. This is welcomed because images generally do not propose unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy. Also, because of copyright law in a number of countries and its relationship to the work of building a free encyclopedia, there are relatively few publicly available images we can take and use. Wikipedia editors' pictures fill a needed role.

Last edited by NeoMenlo (15-Apr-2007 01:02:11)

Shai · 15-Apr-2007 02:31:01

Fair enough, as long as you use references it's probably okay.

DreymaR · 15-Apr-2007 15:40:24

I'd think so. Also, we should upload those images to Wiki and release them properly under the GFDL there so it's done. I saw those other Colemak layout images (uh, can't remember who made them anymore) released like that, and putting ours out that way will ease their later use in a Wikipedia article I believe. Could any of you guys do that for me please? I'm wiki and licence challenged. I give anyone the full rights to anything blah blah.

Last edited by DreymaR (15-Apr-2007 15:41:21)

vilem · 15-Apr-2007 21:30:44

Neo, I have currently no access to any other graphics program than mspaint (xD), so could you modify the images 'a bit'? It would be great if you could
•get rid of the bar at the top of each image (the one with a gradient from black to white and the layout name on it)
•put the 3 images all into one picture with the layout name left aligned on top of each layout in black without "key usage" infront?
(I might seem a bit pedantic, but hey, I'm german!)

And could you also do the same for german, using the info from http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchstabenh%C3%A4ufigkeit, to illustrate that colemak works very well for german too? (remeber to use qwertz instead of qwerty)

I'm thinking of something like this:

Sorry, I just want this article to be at least near perfect. I know they'll probably find something to moan about at the german wikipedia, but I think the better the article, the more likeley it is that it won't be deleted!

NeoMenlo · 18-Apr-2007 03:39:01

Yes there's no Dvorak.
Yes, they aren't the same image.

It took so much longer to recalculate and recolor the layout.

Last edited by NeoMenlo (18-Apr-2007 03:39:57)

vilem · 18-Apr-2007 11:40:44

Thanks! I can probably use photoshop soon, so I can do the rest myself, but thanks so much again! And the S key is split because of the ß is it??

keyboard samurai · 18-Apr-2007 20:41:13

For the record, I think the colored layouts that NeoMenlo did (post #28) are by far the best I have seen.
It was much easier to quickly see the differences in between the three layouts and understand why the
hell Colemak might be interesting. The way he expanded it to scale from 0 to 12 % with blue being enough
to take away some of the not relevant low percentage detail really made the important variation pop out.

Frankly, making it in to a reverse greyscale leaves me not impressed with the differences visually.

An illustration or visually summary of previous published data is not original research. Need citations to sources though.

The problem with hot metal is no one without some exposure to black body physics will understand it without some extra explanation. White being the maximum is not automatically intuitive.

Last edited by keyboard samurai (18-Apr-2007 20:51:34)

NeoMenlo · 19-Apr-2007 01:37:02

vilem wrote:

Thanks! I can probably use photoshop soon, so I can do the rest myself, but thanks so much again! And the S key is split because of the ß is it??

Yes. At least, thats where I thought they were placed. Was I wrong?

For the record, I think the colored layouts that NeoMenlo did (post #28) are by far the best I have seen.

Thank you!

It was much easier to quickly see the differences in between the three layouts and understand why the
hell Colemak might be interesting. The way he expanded it to scale from 0 to 12 % with blue being enough
to take away some of the not relevant low percentage detail really made the important variation pop out.

Thats what I though. I tried to make it a way that I could understand (blue = cold, red = hot). I do think that the sudden light blue => yellow line at the left looks kind of bad, but it makes a ton of sense when you think about it.

Frankly, making it in to a reverse greyscale leaves me not impressed with the differences visually.

Grey kind of has wiki's name all over it... So thats kind of how it makes sense to me...

JLuber · 08-Jul-2007 11:14:52

NeoMenlo wrote:

vilem wrote:
Thanks! I can probably use photoshop soon, so I can do the rest myself, but thanks so much again! And the S key is split because of the ß is it??
Yes. At least, thats where I thought they were placed. Was I wrong?

No answer to this in over two months? Then I'll correct this oversight. On German keyboard layout the 'ß' is placed in the number row right next to the '0'. Uppercase produces '?' and Alt Gr produces '\'.

vilem · 08-Jul-2007 12:16:19

JLuber wrote:

NeoMenlo wrote:
vilem wrote:
Thanks! I can probably use photoshop soon, so I can do the rest myself, but thanks so much again! And the S key is split because of the ß is it??
Yes. At least, thats where I thought they were placed. Was I wrong?
No answer to this in over two months? Then I'll correct this oversight. On German keyboard layout the 'ß' is placed in the number row right next to the '0'. Uppercase produces '?' and Alt Gr produces '\'.

No, JLuber, NeoMenlo meant the colemak position–with alt gr pressed–so he was quite right.

Edit: Oh, I apologise for this oversight, I never noticed that neo put the ß into the wrong position on the german layout. You were right JLuber!

I wanted to add however, that adding ß on the frequency diagramm is not the best idea, as it destroys it's purpose: seeing at first glance the distribution of frequency by intensity of colour. Also, if you would add the ß, I don't see why ä,ö and ü and all other symbols created by alt gr shouldn't be added either.

Last edited by vilem (08-Jul-2007 12:23:47)

Colemak forum

#26 14-Apr-2007 01:06:04

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#27 14-Apr-2007 01:07:55

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#28 14-Apr-2007 04:26:47

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#29 14-Apr-2007 04:36:57

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#30 14-Apr-2007 09:01:39

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#31 14-Apr-2007 13:54:49

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#32 14-Apr-2007 17:45:35

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#33 14-Apr-2007 19:39:28

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#34 14-Apr-2007 21:43:56

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#35 14-Apr-2007 21:46:46

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#36 14-Apr-2007 22:04:41

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#37 14-Apr-2007 22:13:41

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#38 14-Apr-2007 22:20:25

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#39 14-Apr-2007 22:34:58

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#40 14-Apr-2007 22:41:25

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#41 15-Apr-2007 01:00:47

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#42 15-Apr-2007 02:31:01

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#43 15-Apr-2007 15:40:24

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#44 15-Apr-2007 21:30:44

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#45 18-Apr-2007 03:39:01

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#46 18-Apr-2007 11:40:44

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#47 18-Apr-2007 20:41:13

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#48 19-Apr-2007 01:37:02

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#49 08-Jul-2007 11:14:52

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

#50 08-Jul-2007 12:16:19

Re: Colemak vs. Qwerty Frequency Diagrams

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